When To Use Helping Hands

This site uses cookies. By continuing to browse this site, you are agreeing to our Cookie Policy.

Hi,

You can find new board on address: https://forum.ikariam.gameforge.com/
Please register there to continue with usage.

Old forum is in read only mode and will stay like that for some time

Ikariam team

  • RE: When To Use Helping Hands

    I personally think helping hands is a waste. You pay obscene amounts for 1 extra resource. I wouldnt use helping hands because there is literally no return worthwhile.
  • RE: When To Use Helping Hands

    The break even point is 32g for a lux. If you can't buy it for less than 32g then helping hands pays off. If you're on an island with a bonus lux wonder, the price goes down. I always use hh on marble islands but nowhere else unless desperate.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by PacoPico ().

  • I think the same utex.
    However I need resources urgently and looked at it again.

    434 workers (max w/o HH)
    # Capacity: +238 per Hour
    # Income of the town: 5293 Gold per Hour

    651 workers (max w/ HH)
    # Capacity: +268 per Hour
    # Income of the town: 4425 Gold per Hour


    868g / 30 lux = 28.93333g/lux

    So you pay roughly 29g / lux mined for using HH.

    Lux around my area are selling at 35-50g. So HH seems to be better and I don't even have to use my boats.

    Or my analysis is wrong?


    edit: I didn't see PacoPico's reply while writing this. I think my analysis is correct then. I'm going to use HH on all my islands now.

    The post was edited 1 time, last by imnotgosu ().

  • Your analysis is correct but this is also a special island with a bonus production wonder. Regular islands produce 0.5 lux per hour per worker and on this one it's 238/434 = 0.55 lux per hour per worker (ie 10% bonus).
  • imnotgosu, since there are so many variables that will be different for a player depending on which island you are on, corruption, current market prices, etc, the only way to know for sure is by doing the math for your particular resource each time.

    (y-z)*4/(a-b)=x

    y = the number of workers utilized with Helping Hands
    z = the number of workers utilized without Helping Hands
    a = total resources gained with Helping Hands
    b = total resources gained without Helping Hands
    x = amount of gold each additional piece of resource cost using Helping Hands


    This value will usually be in the ballpark of 32, depending on your town/islands' variables. Only you will be able to say whether it will be "worth it" (depending on market prices in your area, how badly you need the resource, if you have ships available, etc.) for you to use helping Hands.




    No one bites back as hard
    On their anger
    None of my pain and woe
    Can show through




  • RE: When To Use Helping Hands

    I disagree with Paco and troix, because they is talking about strictly monetary cost of using helping hands and not considering the most important factor.


    Also, let me improve upon their math....


    Helping hands for wood:

    225 wood workers produce +56 wood an hour
    225 citizens produce +900 gold an hour

    Each peice of wood costs: 16.07 gold a peice

    (note if you use ambrosia to add resources, it's as low as 13 gold a peice)

    Without Ambrosia it's roughly 32 gold a luxury peice as Paco stated, and with roughly 26 gold a peice.

    Big thing to consider, helping hands is actually better than that, because you are tieing up valuable time with your trade ships that could be pillaging FREE resources. (that is as long as you are pillaging inactives)

    So yes, I use helping hands almost 100% of the time for luxury, and about 75% of the time on wood.

    Only time I don't is when there are great buys (25 gold a luxury or less, and 10 gold for wood or less), or when I'm supporting a larger-than-normal attacking force.

    The post was edited 2 times, last by Maestro ().

  • Remember guys to consider that the game rounds numbers.. so what is displayed is not exactly what the true values are..

    for instance..

    with the original example, 434 workers on an island with the bonus gives (434/2)*1.1 = 238.7 lux goods/hr. Adding additional workers via helping hands is now +217 workers for (217/8 )*1.1 = +29.8375 for a total of 268.5375. using the formula from troix one would get (217*4)/29.8375 = 29.0909 gold/lux. This is close to what the OP came up with. Also as Maestro mentions, Ambrosia can also tweak this too.. and in v.0.3.0 with the new production buildings, the cost can be reduced even further. Corruption, of course, raises the price in a likewise manner.

    another issue to consider, is that this is 868 gold/hr that ISN'T buying tradeships.. so while HH is nice to reduce the need to xfer resources, and "frees up" tradeships, over time one ends up with less tradeships than if the didn't use it.

    Last thing to consider, is that wine is kinda special. If one has the tavern space, using HH to get wine so one can go, say, +6 more wine on the slider, this will net +80 happiness, so if you have town hall space, it can net 80*4 = 320 gold, hr. At this rate, wine can "cost" 320/6 = 53 1/3 gold before one no longer nets a "profit" on the "extra" wine.
  • Excellent points Alleycat.. except one thing!

    True, not using helping hands means more gold per hour for trade ships, but you get even MORE money if you are using helping hands and getting extra resources.

    You can just sell your extra resources to PacoPico and Troix for 31 gold an peice :D
  • Yup... this is the "other" use of HH..

    If one can sell resources for > the cost of using HH, and there are no better options (like using the wine to increase citizens), then using HH just to sell the EXTRA goods (you should still be consuming the "normal" goods unless you have no need) is a viable way to make a little extra cash..

    In fact, because of this mechanism, it always amazes me on how resources ever get above 32 gold/hr! :)
  • Geeze, just trying to get the hang of ingame slang is a lot of work. Is anyone willing to tell me what Helping Hands is?

    Though I am enjoying the hell outta the game so far, so the work is worth it...
  • No doubt Alleycat, maybe poorly-laid-out colonies and no ambrosia, stockpiling and impatient, or just plain... errr...

    And Teejay, helping hands is a research that allows you to put in roughly 50% more workers into the mine, quarries, vineyards and mills, but they only produce about 25% as much as normal per worker.

    Just look in your economy research descriptions in your academy... here it is:

    Field of Research: Economy

    Name: Helping Hands

    Description: If our citizens help out a little underground instead of tanning themselves on the beach, we’ll get more raw materials and they’ll get less sunburn. There’s always a need for help down the mines, saw mills and vineyards.

    Allows: Overloading of resources.
  • Originally posted by Maestro
    You can just sell your extra resources to PacoPico and Troix for 31 gold an peice :D


    Ha ha! And I would gladly do so, though 31 gold is a bit too close to the line for me to bother with, but the gist is right.

    I will grant you that keeping trade ships and action points available can gain some extra value *if* they are used but what that value is is debatable. Consider that hh is costing you over the entire 24 hours in a day but keep in mind making purchases only ties up ships for a couple of hours. I can easily overlap that time with the time needed to set up blockades on my pillage targets... However, most of the time I make my purchases via the offer route in the trading post which means people bring their goods to me. I will make purchases myself if the deal is good and I won't be needing the trade ships for the duration of the transaction. So this perceived cost of using up action points and trade ships I don't think is very significant.

    Regarding AlleyCat's look at the special value of wine... he's not considering the fact that that extra wine does not have to be generated by hh but can be purchased on the market at cheaper prices so it's a non-argument unless wine is in short supply. In fact, I quite often make offers to buy or buy wine locally rather than using up my action points to ship the wine between towns, something I think Maestro can appreciate :)
  • Originally posted by PacoPico
    Regarding AlleyCat's look at the special value of wine... he's not considering the fact that that extra wine does not have to be generated by hh but can be purchased on the market at cheaper prices so it's a non-argument unless wine is in short supply. In fact, I quite often make offers to buy or buy wine locally rather than using up my action points to ship the wine between towns, something I think Maestro can appreciate :)

    Ahh.. but that is the point to all of this anyway... isn't it??

    Isn't it all about how to get resources in the cheapest possible way??

    On can harvest "normally".. or they can spend a lil more and use HH.. they can pillage for it too as it has a cost in upkeep and replacements.. or one can buy and sell for the stuff in the market.. that's the beauty of it all..

    It is true the the "inherent" value of the wine is still 53 1/3 regardless if you harvest for it or buy it in the market or even pillage for it.. but the whole point was to figure out what the costs were.. and I was illustrating rather clearly that the value of wine can "normally" surpass even HH's cost.
  • RE: When To Use Helping Hands

    Originally posted by Maestro
    I disagree with Paco and troix, because they is talking about strictly monetary cost of using helping hands and not considering the most important factor.

    Also, let me improve upon their math....

    Helping hands for wood:

    225 wood workers produce +56 wood an hour
    225 citizens produce +900 gold an hour

    Each peice of wood costs: 16.07 gold a peice

    (note if you use ambrosia to add resources, it's as low as 13 gold a peice)

    Without Ambrosia it's roughly 32 gold a luxury peice as Paco stated, and with roughly 26 gold a peice.

    Big thing to consider, helping hands is actually better than that, because you are tieing up valuable time with your trade ships that could be pillaging FREE resources. (that is as long as you are pillaging inactives)

    So yes, I use helping hands almost 100% of the time for luxury, and about 75% of the time on wood.

    Only time I don't is when there are great buys (25 gold a luxury or less, and 10 gold for wood or less), or when I'm supporting a larger-than-normal attacking force.


    @Maestro
    Actually I mentioned quite a few factors apart from the monetary one. And I only showed an example for luxury resources because that is what the question asked about.

    I have never used ambrosia and do not know what effect it has on anything :)

    As far as the math goes, Helping Hands requires four workers to produce one more piece of wood and eight workers per piece of luxury good, or 16 gold and 32 gold base cost respectively. The formula I gave will show the actual cost based on a player's individual variables (e.g. coruption, island wonder, etc.)

    Originally posted by Alleycat
    Remember guys to consider that the game rounds numbers.. so what is displayed is not exactly what the true values are..

    for instance..

    with the original example, 434 workers on an island with the bonus gives (434/2)*1.1 = 238.7 lux goods/hr. Adding additional workers via helping hands is now +217 workers for (217/8 )*1.1 = +29.8375 for a total of 268.5375. using the formula from troix one would get (217*4)/29.8375 = 29.0909 gold/lux. This is close to what the OP came up with. Also as Maestro mentions, Ambrosia can also tweak this too.. and in v.0.3.0 with the new production buildings, the cost can be reduced even further. Corruption, of course, raises the price in a likewise manner.

    another issue to consider, is that this is 868 gold/hr that ISN'T buying tradeships.. so while HH is nice to reduce the need to xfer resources, and "frees up" tradeships, over time one ends up with less tradeships than if the didn't use it.

    Last thing to consider, is that wine is kinda special. If one has the tavern space, using HH to get wine so one can go, say, +6 more wine on the slider, this will net +80 happiness, so if you have town hall space, it can net 80*4 = 320 gold, hr. At this rate, wine can "cost" 320/6 = 53 1/3 gold before one no longer nets a "profit" on the "extra" wine.


    Actually it would give you (651-434)*4/(268-238 )= 28.933
    This formula works off of the numbers displayed, not the internal game calculations. It is meant as a quick and easy "rule of thumb" method to determine how much HH production would cost. If someone is in a situation where .1 or .2 gold pieces an hour will cause a difference then they probably should not be using HH. (Again though, the real determination depends on their immediate situation and need).

    And we can spend all day coming up with what if situations. 'If we never built troops we would have more gold to buy ships' or 'If we never expand our towns we won't need more resources so any price is too much', etc, etc. I don't think the thread poster was looking for that in-depth of an analysis ;)




    No one bites back as hard
    On their anger
    None of my pain and woe
    Can show through




    The post was edited 1 time, last by troix ().

  • I have actually done my own analysis even before I started this thread.
    Same with utexasrocks I've always thought HH is a waste based solely on what I've read on the forums. But my results proved otherwise. Maybe I missed something - searched, found nothing, so I asked.

    I only needed confirmation. For the benefit of other players please continue to give inputs and after some time a mod may close this thread.

    Thanks.
  • RE: When To Use Helping Hands

    Originally posted by troix
    Actually it would give you (651-434)*4/(268-238 )= 28.933
    This formula works off of the numbers displayed, not the internal game calculations. It is meant as a quick and easy "rule of thumb" method to determine how much HH production would cost. If someone is in a situation where .1 or .2 gold pieces an hour will cause a difference then they probably should not be using HH. (Again though, the real determination depends on their immediate situation and need).

    I've got "another" method...

    try this on for size..

    HH luxury "cost" = 32/(1+bonuses)
    HH wood "cost" = 16/(1+bonuses)

    so for his island with the +10% wonder, one would get luxury at:
    32/1.1 = 29.0909

    the +20% for ambrosia instead..
    Lux: 32/1.2 = 26 2/3
    wood: 16/1.2 = 13 1/3

    I dunno if ambrosia compounds with the wonder bonus or just adds.. so luxury cost for both would either be:
    Additive: 32/1.3 = 24.615
    Compounded: 32/1.32 = 24.2424

    or say you are in -20% corruption on a "normal" island:
    lux: 32/.8 = 40
    wood: 16/.8 = 20

    etc. etc.

    so without too much math, one can easily figure out what HH material "costs" by just determining the total percentage gain/loss over a "normal" island.. no "rounding" needed! :) seems simple enough to me.
  • Originally posted by Travis
    i only use helping hands for in special cases like when im upgrading GR or in a war and need sulfur ( i always have it on for Wine tho)


    It is a huge waste to do, unless you really need a resource. Otherwise it's eating up your income, and there isn't much of a benefit.