Advanced Game - Into the Black (Firefly Theme)

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  • We did figure it out Heather. But if you ask me, we were too late. And if Turkeh had not wasted her N2 action on Bambi/Crack we would have lost without knowing a thing. I'm not saying the game was imbalanced, it was hella fun and you did your best. But no matter how much you try to balance it, as long as the cult recruiter lives, there is no stopping them.
    I look forward to anymore games you have in mind, cause this was the most interesting I've had yet. Thank you.


    Sig made by DrkAngel.
  • I thought the game was nicely balanced. For all the same reasons it's tricky to be mafia and choose who to kill, it's tricky to be the recruiter because people can read who you might recruit. The way to stop a cult is to kill the recruiter, and you can deduce the recruiter just like you can deduce who is in mafia - they just eliminate town a different way than mafia. Mafia wins by decreasing the number of town through kills, Cult wins by increasing their own number. The only change I might have made was adding instant death to the recruiter for River (in addition to the timed instant death one for the operative) that would give me more land mines to avoid.

    Do not meddle with dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
    :turkeydance: I'm just a small turkeh, how much trouble could I get into? :turkeydance:
  • I did toy with the idea of a River recruitment being insta-death. But with both a Vig and an SK already in the mix, as well as a potential one-shot from Jayne, I figured it would be one too many obstacles for the Reavers. Originally I considered making the Jayne role a PGO, but that seemed a bit overkill for the town. :)
  • I disagree with the game being biased to either side. Right up until the end, Mea could have came on and switched her vote, and lynched Shep. Unfortunately she felt alienated from the town, and we were happy to keep her that way. After the Shep lynch, Turkeh was going to recruit again, probably for the last time, since she was undoubtedly next unless we could swing things away from her. (There was a plan B, and C for this by the way) Without our recruiter, I believe the town would have came out on top, but we will never know.

    I felt things changing the balance almost hourly from one side to the other, so that seems like a fairly balanced game from my standpoint.
  • Let me get this straight Jasper. Taking all things into account. You don't feel it was fair for town? Did you even read that game?

    First, we were outed in the story. Now while we know this was not actually the case or the intention it was being accepted as legit, and not corrected by the mod who shouldn't have corrected it first because it's common knowledge that this doesn't happen and second because doing so would have irrevocably damaged the towns case.

    Second, and extension was offered when there was no reason for one. Had I not requested one as well to maintain my facade h there would have only been 1 request, but it wwas granted anyway.

    Third almost every role had something to do with either vote manipulation or killing aside from the cult or mason.

    Fourth, the town was notified it was at lylo in an advanced game. If you're paying an advanced game with any mindset other than you're at lylo from day 1 you're playing it wrong.

    Fifth I was recruited n1 and I was in a mason group giving an almost instant heads up that something was amiss. We're it not for my actual distaste for pro town pm groups and having already told frozen I would answer her in thread prior to being recruited it would have been devastating.

    But the vig did the first day... how is that the cults fault?

    But the sk never hit the cult... again not our fault.

    But the town didn't know how the cult worked... still not our fault, in fact I spent a great deal of time explaining how it worked in hopes they would come up with a legit case / argument, so I could either crush it or admit defeat to a well thought out case.

    And then there's also the fact that if you wish to challenge something such as the make up of a game like this it would probably be better to do so in private rather than out here making yourself look like a pompous arse.

    My quote still doesn't fit ~ Me
    Game Rules I-Ticket (Support Tool)
  • A completely unrelated note, thank you very much Heather. It was an excellent game, despite what certain individuals might think. And I can't remember the lady time I had so much fun. That last day was amazing.

    Frozen and Baka you both fought hard and it was an amazing sparring match that I will remember for a long time.

    Also abduln if you're still reading this, thanks for showing your true skill there at the end twisting times to fit your case was very well played, if a bit questionable by board rules, but I'm pretty sure I have to report it for anything to be done and I'm loathe to punish someone for a good move.

    Lm I'm not sure if you realize it, but I meant it when I said your BoP argument was good. Remember that weapon and use it when necessary. It's something that us old schoolers can't really defend against. Other than to say oops.

    All of you are getting better every game is gonna be awesome when everyone comes into their own here.

    My quote still doesn't fit ~ Me
    Game Rules I-Ticket (Support Tool)
  • *giggles at lady time*

    Also thanks very much Heather for coming back and running a great game :). Sorry I was not around as much as I would have liked.

    Do not meddle with dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
    :turkeydance: I'm just a small turkeh, how much trouble could I get into? :turkeydance:
  • ShepherdBook wrote:

    First, we were outed in the story. Now while we know this was not actually the case or the intention it was being accepted as legit, and not corrected by the mod who shouldn't have corrected it first because it's common knowledge that this doesn't happen and second because doing so would have irrevocably damaged the towns case.

    This was a big dilemma for me. I couldn't say anything in thread to disabuse FA of her notion about the story without appearing to take sides. My solution would have been to include a reference to all the living named characters if the game had continued into night phase, rather than just grabbing whichever name popped into my head first while I was writing the story (which is what I had been doing).

    ShepherdBook wrote:


    And then there's also the fact that if you wish to challenge something such as the make up of a game like this it would probably be better to do so in private rather than out here making yourself look like a pompous arse.

    Thanks, Shep. I couldn't really say this myself without it looking like sour grapes, but I'm very glad someone did.
  • I'm not talking about what happened in the game, and I'm not talking about the players' mistakes in this game. Please don't consider what happened in the game when judging if the setup is balanced or not. A setup is reviewed for balance before the game starts so the mistakes a player can make which may be attributable to his skill in playing is not considered. What happened here is just one of the several possibilities that can happen. I'm discussing the setup itself.

    My point is the Cult Recruiter is an overpowered role if you don't give any limit to the recruiting ability because the Cult will just keep on recruiting unless you can kill the recruiter, which has a very low chance of happening throughout the game. In late game, the Cult would have probably grown enough numbers and it's already too late for the town to eliminate them, just like what happened here. They will already have the leverage to absolutely win the game.

    I still think that a Cult Recruiter should be x-shot, otherwise it's going to be overpowered. I'm not being all-knowing here. I'm just saying my opinion, which I think is correct. Everyone is free to disagree, and I disagree that the Cult Recruiter with unlimited recruiting ability is not overpowered. I didn't address this through PM because this is nothing personal, and I thought it would be a good idea to discuss setup balance especially some people here are modding/will be modding. Don't worry I won't argue further. I'll just leave everyone to think about it. :)
  • Geez, Jasper, give it a rest already. I've already described my setup. Limiting the recruiting ability would have given town an severe advantage. Every single Cult game I've ever been in has had limitless recruitment, and most of the time the Cult loses.

    I have to say, I think it's rich that someone who ran such an unbalanced setup as that Greater Idea game would criticise a setup that I tweaked until it was as balanced as I could feasibly make it.

    I'm starting to remember why I left this game for so long. It's the constant back-biting and second-guessing by certain members here...
  • Just ignore him Heather. It was a balanced game. And like I said I'm my explanation I knew you couldn't step in and say anything. And I was hoping for a similar solution to what you had apparently envisioned had the game continued. I do regret that I even said anything to you in the pm thread, and know that it was born from frustration at the time and not out of any ill will.

    Now Jasper... I personally worked very hard for that victory, as did Xerxes and turkeh. That you would cheapen it by trying to insinuate am unbalanced setup in favor of the cult, is more than mildly upsetting to me. The town had many abilities to use in their favor. How is it the mods fault that the vote manipulator lynched the vig d1? Who could have helped clear the cult out, or that the vig acted scummy enough to cause this to happen? Or that this same player, the vote manipulator, acted in a fashion that caused him to be targeted by the sk n1 and prevent the town from taking advantage of his rather powerful ability and apparently vast knowledge... Bottom line is your idea that the game setup is possible to be perfectly balanced regardless of the actions in the game is ridiculous. And again something that should have been discussed in private. Now walk away from the shovel before I verbally throw you in the hole that you've dug.

    My quote still doesn't fit ~ Me
    Game Rules I-Ticket (Support Tool)
  • I was going to hold my gobbles because I hate to interfere with discourse too - but I also found it a bit rude to publicly criticize someone's setup when they specifically asked you to contact them privately. Running a game that you design takes an enormous amount of work after all - would hate for people to feel like their work wasn't appreciated.

    If your goal was to improve the setup, I really think Heather would have taken your comments and such into consideration.

    Do not meddle with dragons, for you are crunchy and good with ketchup.
    :turkeydance: I'm just a small turkeh, how much trouble could I get into? :turkeydance:
  • Again, I'm only talking specifically about the setup itself. This is a setup theory discussion, and not a discussion about why some players don't deserve their merit to win. The setup is something that the players can't control so I'm not giving demerits to the win. I'm not talking about what happened in the game. I'm talking about the setup alone. This is just an objective discussion about setups, and I don't know why people here are taking it as an offense. I have also been criticized about my past games before about the setup but I never took it as an offense. This just serves as a form of check and balance after the game so in the future other people can also take note about these things. She only asked me to contact privately if it is an immediate concern, which I think is not so I simply decided to hold off until the game ends and just let everything roll out as originally planned. I expected that you were all okay for an objective and theoretical discussion, but apparently some people just can't handle these things without losing their cool.

    I have also said why the Greater Idea is different from this game. Everyone had knowledge of all the possible roles so it was at least fair because they can anticipate if the alignment of some people will change. It was imbalanced in the sense that it does not strictly follow the traditional ratio of town from not town. And there are still other factor that will compensate to the imbalance ratio to make it fair. About the cult recruiter, I said I won't discuss further, and I don't intend to after that previous post, but a few people here still provoked a reply.

    And as much as possible I don't want to make this conversation personal but people are making things personal. When I was criticized for having a bad play in Turkeh's game, no one even said it was rude to publicly criticize my play. No one even had the idea of just maybe PMing me instead of throwing trash at me in front of everyone. How is setup discussion and game play discussion different from each other. Both are criticisms and are intended for an objective discussion of things. Guess what? it also takes an enormous amount of work to play this game. I'm not saying that I have zero appreciation for this game. I just can't understand why some people here finds it okay to slam players for their play in the game yet think it's NOT okay to make criticisms about the setup, and the game in general. Your beliefs are seriously selective. I'm done with all of you.
  • People!

    Jasper never attacked anything about Heather or even the game. He just said his opinions :) lets shake hands and get over it - because it doesn't matter!

    Heather really modded this in an awesome way. town loose was on their own. scum win was on their own. But people can give and share opinions about making the game better next time!

    the only reason for talking about this is that !

    lets be friends!

    Sig by Kaleg Nar
  • Jasper the problem we're having isn't that you have an opinion or even that you aired your opinion. It's with how you chose to do it.

    1 based off comments in span section you appear to have formulated an opinion before all the facts had even been presented, this will put you at a natural bias once they are.

    2 you were specifically asked to do so in private, that you decided to do it publicly shows that you didn't just want to discuss the setup you wanted to be seen doing it. This whole scenario could have just as easily been done in private involving a couple of recipients and I'm sure would have been taken much better

    3 out of mild curiosity, would you still believe the game to be unbalanced if the town had won?

    4 I've seen you're idea of balanced, and no I'm not referring to the GI game. And it brings to mind the quote "you keep using this word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

    5 most of the time if I have something negative unless it's a general post game blanket critique/advice post I send it via PM. No one likes being criticized in public. Remember some 4 letter words are good, like tact.

    6 your logic of it wasn't an immediate concern is poor at best and transparent at worst. How could you have immediate concerns without knowing the setup? And even if you had known and did have what was going to be done about it?

    7 and finally even though we are trying to rebuild this section of the boards. That you're done with us, from what I've seen, isn't a big loss. So bye Felicia.

    My quote still doesn't fit ~ Me
    Game Rules I-Ticket (Support Tool)
  • Just looking at the setup, it's fine. It's a typical cult game but it has an SK it and a vig. Without looking at any facts of what did happen in the game, sk and vig both have a chance of killing a cult member D1, as well as a cult member could have been lynched D1. These all being true makes the cult potentially having the simplest loss. Players in a game without looking at the facts should assume multiple possibilities. Did the mafia try to kill? Who would the doc protect? Other negating roles? After the first night it shouldn't be assumed the doc got super lucky so a cult is one of the first thoughts I jump to, it's among the possibilities with the side possibility SK only game or other special killing and recruiting roles. All of those expand the possibilities.

    I'm extremely tired so this is just a big lump post, sorry.


    Sig by June 8)
    Love is like air, without it... I die.

    spaPOT wrote:

    no worriess..you see im a kid thats why im dumb..kuku :pillepalle: